The decline and eventual demise of the Relational Model of Data 
Author Message
 The decline and eventual demise of the Relational Model of Data

         INDUSTRY INFLUENCER EVENING

        The decline and eventual demise of the
               Relational Model of Data

A presentation and discussion for journalists, analysts, influencers and
special interest groups

Thursday May 31
Presentation 6:30pm - 7:30pm
Discussion 7:30pm to close
The Black Horse
6 Rathbone Place, London
Drinks and cold buffet
Upstairs Private Room

Presenter:  Simon Williams
Inventor of the Associative Model of Data and
Chief Executive of Lazy Software Limited

The Relational Model of Data, now over thirty years old, is the foundation
of almost every commercial database today.

The challenge of the Object Model of Data has faded and the economic case
for adopting the hybrid Object/ Relational technology is unproven.

So is the Relational Model the last word in database architecture?

Simon Williams will present the case that the Relational Database is
fundamentally unsuited to the internet age and has begun an inevitable
decline.

Every new relational database application needs a new set of programs
written from scratch.  This is expensive and labour-intensive and
unmaintainable in the growing skills shortage.

Simon invented the Associative Model of Data, which is claimed to be the
first major advance beyond the Relational Model.

This promises to be a debate of great interest for those of you following
the fortunes of the database market.  Simon is a highly knowledgeable and
entertaining presenter.  Copies of his recently published book, the
Associative Model of Data, will also be available on the day.

If you'd like to attend, please either register at www.lazysoft.com
 or contact George Palmer of The EuroPR Group;
Tel: 00 4420 8879 3033

We look forward to seeing you at The Black Horse.

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Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:56:47 GMT
 The decline and eventual demise of the Relational Model of Data

Quote:

>         The decline and eventual demise of the
>                Relational Model of Data

Another guy who thinks he can whip up 'better' data model that relational without
understanding relational theory (are you listening, Carl?)

We featured Simon Williams in our Quote-of-the-Week on Debunkings last month. (See
http://www.***.com/ ). Quote-of-the-Week on Debunkings normally
contains quotes from database users and practitioners blatantly exposing their lack of
knowledge of relational fundamentals. Mr. Williams is no exception (though he might be
entertaining.)

--
Lee Fe{*filter*}an, FFE Software, Inc. ( http://www.***.com/ )
===================================================================
* Check out Database Debunkings ( http://www.***.com/ )
* "The Forum Where Database Matters Are Set Straight"

Quote:
> A presentation and discussion for journalists, analysts, influencers and
> special interest groups

> Presenter:  Simon Williams
> Inventor of the Associative Model of Data and
> Chief Executive of Lazy Software Limited

> The Relational Model of Data, now over thirty years old, is the foundation
> of almost every commercial database today.

> The challenge of the Object Model of Data has faded and the economic case
> for adopting the hybrid Object/ Relational technology is unproven.

> So is the Relational Model the last word in database architecture?

> Simon Williams will present the case that the Relational Database is
> fundamentally unsuited to the internet age and has begun an inevitable
> decline.

> Every new relational database application needs a new set of programs
> written from scratch.  This is expensive and labour-intensive and
> unmaintainable in the growing skills shortage.

> Simon invented the Associative Model of Data, which is claimed to be the
> first major advance beyond the Relational Model.

> This promises to be a debate of great interest for those of you following
> the fortunes of the database market.  Simon is a highly knowledgeable and
> entertaining presenter.  Copies of his recently published book, the
> Associative Model of Data, will also be available on the day.



Tue, 11 Nov 2003 05:58:35 GMT
 The decline and eventual demise of the Relational Model of Data

Quote:


> >         The decline and eventual demise of the
> >                Relational Model of Data

> Another guy who thinks he can whip up 'better' data model that relational without
> understanding relational theory (are you listening, Carl?)

> We featured Simon Williams in our Quote-of-the-Week on Debunkings last month. (See
> http://www.firstsql.com/dbdebunk/qu041201.htm). Quote-of-the-Week on Debunkings normally
> contains quotes from database users and practitioners blatantly exposing their lack of
> knowledge of relational fundamentals. Mr. Williams is no exception (though he might be
> entertaining.)

I would use database fundamentals rather than relational theory. Williams does not know
what a data model is, let alone relational theory and its crucial importance. He has NO
data model and what he is proposing is sheer nonsense.

--



Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:14:33 GMT
 The decline and eventual demise of the Relational Model of Data

Quote:

> Williams does not know what a data model is, let alone relational theory
> and its crucial importance. He has NO data model and what he is proposing
> is sheer nonsense.

Hi Lee, it's good to make your acquaintance. I'd like you to accept a
complimentary copy of my book "The Associative Model of Data", and
then invite you to debate my knowledge of data models and relational
theory, and whether or not what I'm proposing is complete nonsense, in
this public forum. Please email me your mailing address and I'll send
the book right away.

Meanwhile, in my defense pending a fuller debate could I offer
quotations from the UK's two most respected technical analysts:

Bloor Research: "We like the Associative Model of Data. While Object
database vendors used to claim that objects were more intuitive than
relational tables, the associative approach is arguably more intuitive
than either." "The Associative Model potentially offers huge
advantages when it comes to both application reuse and application
maintenance."

Butler Group: "It is eminently possible that the long-awaited
replacement for the RDBMS may have just appeared on the market. That
this will be a long process is an undisputable fact, but those with
good memories will also be able to recall that the relational model
was not universally accepted from its inception. It is also possible
to recall that those organisations that took on board the relational
model from an early stage were able to gain some large measure of
competitive advantage both in terms of pure data management and with
respect to developing powerful business-based applications. Butler
Group believes that the new data model proposed by Lazy Software could
also have a similar impact for early adopters."

I look forward to hearing from you.



Sun, 16 Nov 2003 23:34:19 GMT
 The decline and eventual demise of the Relational Model of Data

Quote:

> > Williams does not know what a data model is, let alone relational theory
> > and its crucial importance. He has NO data model and what he is proposing
> > is sheer nonsense.

> Hi Lee, it's good to make your acquaintance. I'd like you to accept a
> complimentary copy of my book "The Associative Model of Data", and
> then invite you to debate my knowledge of data models and relational
> theory, and whether or not what I'm proposing is complete nonsense, in
> this public forum. Please email me your mailing address and I'll send
> the book right away.

Simon, you may also wish to have a look at Paul Brown's new book on
Object-Relational Databases:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0130194603/

I would be happy to put you in contact with Paul if you are interested. I
work for Informix Labs with Paul. I have about 10 years experience with
OODBs and have also worked with RDBs.

Quote:

> Meanwhile, in my defense pending a fuller debate could I offer
> quotations from the UK's two most respected technical analysts:

> Bloor Research: "We like the Associative Model of Data. While Object
> database vendors used to claim that objects were more intuitive than
> relational tables, the associative approach is arguably more intuitive
> than either." "The Associative Model potentially offers huge
> advantages when it comes to both application reuse and application
> maintenance."

> Butler Group: "It is eminently possible that the long-awaited
> replacement for the RDBMS may have just appeared on the market. That
> this will be a long process is an undisputable fact, but those with
> good memories will also be able to recall that the relational model
> was not universally accepted from its inception. It is also possible
> to recall that those organisations that took on board the relational
> model from an early stage were able to gain some large measure of
> competitive advantage both in terms of pure data management and with
> respect to developing powerful business-based applications. Butler
> Group believes that the new data model proposed by Lazy Software could
> also have a similar impact for early adopters."

> I look forward to hearing from you.

Sadly, these comments sound very much like the kind of thing Butler Bloor
said about OODBs about 10 years ago. Not much has changed since that time
really (and in case anyone gets hot under the collar, I have co-edited two
books on OODBs:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/013899725X/
and
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0471383848/

and now work for a Relational vendor :-) )

KR

akmal



Mon, 17 Nov 2003 02:29:26 GMT
 The decline and eventual demise of the Relational Model of Data

Quote:

> Sadly, these comments sound very much like the kind of thing Butler Bloor
> said about OODBs about 10 years ago. Not much has changed since that time
> really (and in case anyone gets hot under the collar, I have co-edited two
> books on OODBs:

Hi Akmal,

yesterday I have been mailing with someone who used to work for O2.  Their
story really is a tragedy. What is your opinion, why the best object
database approach of the past deserved such a bad management? Maybe you can
comment on what has happened to them and why?

We have talked about this before:
I do believe that things have changed very much within the last 10 years.
The percentage of industrial use of object-oriented languages has gone up
from less than 5% to more than 50%.
That should get the run for object databases going and end in a tornado.

Kind regards,
Carl
---
Carl Rosenberger
db4o - database for objects - http://www.db4o.com



Mon, 17 Nov 2003 03:19:09 GMT
 The decline and eventual demise of the Relational Model of Data

Quote:


> > Williams does not know what a data model is, let alone relational theory
> > and its crucial importance. He has NO data model and what he is proposing
> > is sheer nonsense.

> Hi Lee, it's good to make your acquaintance. I'd like you to accept a
> complimentary copy of my book "The Associative Model of Data", and
> then invite you to debate my knowledge of data models and relational
> theory, and whether or not what I'm proposing is complete nonsense, in
> this public forum. Please email me your mailing address and I'll send
> the book right away.

Hi Simon, I am interested and have responded via private email.

--
Lee Fe{*filter*}an, FFE Software, Inc. ( http://www.***.com/ )
===================================================================
* Check out Database Debunkings ( http://www.***.com/ )
* "The Forum Where Database Matters Are Set Straight"



Mon, 17 Nov 2003 03:46:51 GMT
 The decline and eventual demise of the Relational Model of Data

Quote:


> > Sadly, these comments sound very much like the kind of thing Butler Bloor
> > said about OODBs about 10 years ago. Not much has changed since that time
> > really (and in case anyone gets hot under the collar, I have co-edited two
> > books on OODBs:

> Hi Akmal,

> yesterday I have been mailing with someone who used to work for O2.  Their
> story really is a tragedy. What is your opinion, why the best object
> database approach of the past deserved such a bad management? Maybe you can
> comment on what has happened to them and why?

Carl,

For O2, I think it was that O2 Technology was bought by Vmark, then Vmark
was bought by Ardent, then Ardent was bought by Informix (maybe I missed
some company in-between). So, lack of stability contributed I think.
Francois Bancilhon was CTO throughout AFAIK, until the Informix
acquisition. The guy was a legend in the OODB world. Just do a search for
him at Michael Ley's database web site and you'll see all his papers on
OODBs, not to mention the book he co-edited (something like, "How to Build
an OODB: The Story of O2"). I think Francois does not work with OODBs
anymore. Once Ardent had decided to stop development, that effectively
sealed O2s fate I think. Only they know the reasons why.

akmal



Mon, 17 Nov 2003 05:37:02 GMT
 The decline and eventual demise of the Relational Model of Data

Quote:

> For O2, I think it was that O2 Technology was bought by Vmark, then Vmark
> was bought by Ardent, then Ardent was bought by Informix (maybe I missed
> some company in-between). So, lack of stability contributed I think.
> Francois Bancilhon was CTO throughout AFAIK, until the Informix
> acquisition. The guy was a legend in the OODB world. Just do a search for
> him at Michael Ley's database web site and you'll see all his papers on
> OODBs, not to mention the book he co-edited (something like, "How to Build
> an OODB: The Story of O2"). I think Francois does not work with OODBs
> anymore. Once Ardent had decided to stop development, that effectively
> sealed O2s fate I think. Only they know the reasons why.

Hi Akmal,

thanks a lot for the information.
I do know that Francois Bancilhon was the hero.

I also know the great resources at Uni Konstanz. I was trying to arrange a
meeting with Michael Ley and Thorsten Grust, since they are only 200 km away
from here, but somehow I lost the thread in all other work.

The information I privately received on O2 yesterday was quite a bit more
detailed than yours. I am not sure whether I am permitted to pass it on, so
I would rather not post it here.

Kind regards,
Carl



Mon, 17 Nov 2003 06:11:16 GMT
 The decline and eventual demise of the Relational Model of Data

Quote:


> > For O2, I think it was that O2 Technology was bought by Vmark, then Vmark
> > was bought by Ardent, then Ardent was bought by Informix (maybe I missed
> > some company in-between). So, lack of stability contributed I think.
> > Francois Bancilhon was CTO throughout AFAIK, until the Informix
> > acquisition. The guy was a legend in the OODB world. Just do a search for
> > him at Michael Ley's database web site and you'll see all his papers on
> > OODBs, not to mention the book he co-edited (something like, "How to Build
> > an OODB: The Story of O2"). I think Francois does not work with OODBs
> > anymore. Once Ardent had decided to stop development, that effectively
> > sealed O2s fate I think. Only they know the reasons why.

> Hi Akmal,

> thanks a lot for the information.
> I do know that Francois Bancilhon was the hero.

> I also know the great resources at Uni Konstanz. I was trying to arrange a
> meeting with Michael Ley and Thorsten Grust, since they are only 200 km away
> from here, but somehow I lost the thread in all other work.

> The information I privately received on O2 yesterday was quite a bit more
> detailed than yours. I am not sure whether I am permitted to pass it on, so
> I would rather not post it here.

I have my own ideas as well Carl, but sometimes it is better to keep ones
thoughts to oneself. And you are right, private email should be kept
private.

akmal



Mon, 17 Nov 2003 06:25:58 GMT
 The decline and eventual demise of the Relational Model of Data
Posted for Fabian Pascal:

Quote:


> > Williams does not know what a data model is, let alone relational theory
> > and its crucial importance. He has NO data model and what he is proposing
> > is sheer nonsense.

> Meanwhile, in my defense pending a fuller debate could I offer
> quotations from the UK's two most respected technical analysts:

> Bloor Research: "We like the Associative Model of Data. ...

> Butler Group: "It is eminently possible that the long-awaited
> replacement for the RDBMS may have just appeared on the market. ...

There is no better evidence to validate that my comment was right than to quote Bloor
and Butler. They may, unfortunately, be "respected technical analysts", but they
understand what a data model and RM are as well as Williams, namely, zilch. I recall I
(and Chris Date, see below) critiqued at least one DBMS article in which they proclaimed
-- in 1992 -- relational dead by the hands of ODBMS. We are in 2001 and they are still
at it, now praising "AMD".  What fad next?

The industry is chockful of "respected analysts" who are clueless. I mean, what can one
expect from an industry that considers Celko and Inman experts in anything, let alone
data fundamentals. You can get analysts to say anything you want them to say these days.
It's easy to say anything if you know nothing.

We will be publishing this exchange on DATABASE DEBUNKINGS
(http://www.dbdebunk.com). We will include Date's critique of Bloor's 1992 article. To
whet your appetite, here's the conclusion about Bloor in Date's book:

"... [if] the relational model's influence is diminishing ... it's the industry's loss,
and it's partly the fault of certain "experts" who ought not to be working in a field  
they don't seem to have even the elementary understanding of."

Incidentally, both I and Chris looked at material on Williams' AMD and dropped it after
less than a page. Chris' comment: "life is too short".

Fabian Pascal
Editor, Database Debunkings



Fri, 21 Nov 2003 13:49:43 GMT
 
 [ 11 post ] 

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